Road Runner Nest

Guys, I really need some advsie please with my '72 440.
I am having a real problem getting the car to shift into any gear with the engine running.
The moment I move the shifter towards 1st, the car wants to start moving, but it does not slip ino gear. With the engine not running it shifts into all gears.
It is a new clutch plate, (B&B), the pressure plate had small 'hot' spots on, which was cleaned up by a machine shop.
I have adjusted the finger nuts all the way in, al the way out, half way, with no luck.
Could it be that by smoothing the pressure plate has caused it not to work?
There are no noises from the clutch, motor runs smooth, just do not want to go into gear.
If I look at the clutch from below, it moves when pressing the pedal, bearing works fine.
The only other thing is that the pedal rod has a bit of play where it clips above the pedal with the spring washer. I can move the pedal rod up and down with my hand, about half inch play. Not sure if this is a problem?
Of course the car ran fine before I started this restoration
Thanks for any input, I appreciate it

Well we just can't be having this!

Machining the pressure plate? Flywheel yes, never did a PP. I would suspect as long as it was no more than .005" the plate can make it up in travel . Although this would show up in holding ability, not shifting.

The 1/2" play in the linkage is normal assuming the pedal isn't sitting really low compared to the brake.

What are "finger nuts" exactly?

I guess the first thing I would do is check the clutch clearance and make sure the clutch disk can move.

With the clutch pedal depressed...If you can get a 0.025"- 0.035 feeler gauge ( 0.5-0.8mm) between the flywheel and clutch disk, AND you can spin the clutch disk fairly easy, that should be good starting point. Adjust the linkage for the clearance. Also- if you have one of the rubber bushing that engages the clutch fork, make sure it's in good condition, they tend to get squished. Personally I would chuck it for the all metal part. I digress..
While your there make sure the TOB ( throw out bearing) is the right size for your pilot shaft, and that it fully releases the fingers on the PP when the pedal is released. I mention this longshot only because of the two TOB sizes- no offense , but I've seen it done with the small pinion trans and large pinion TOB. Might as well check since your under there. The TOB should be able to rock slightly on the pinion cover it slides on.

If you have the clearance and the clutch disk will spin fairly free , i would check the shifter linkage adjustment. Those rods have to drop in the levers with no pre-load either way, and the right drill bit holding the shifter in it's neutral position.

If you have the clearance and the disk will not turn freely / independently of the flywheel and PP that could mean the input shaft is stuck in the pilot bearing. It's going to take some effort to rotate the disk but it shouldn't be much if the pilot bushing and input bearing are all working ok Listen as you turn it a slight dragging sound as the parts turn is to be expected but they should not be engaging each other or able to transfer any significant rotation. I guess the best way to put it is it needs to be loose to turn freely, but no, or not much, more than that. The disk should have a very slight play between directions of rotation as well. Not much, but it tells you the splines aren't stuck between the disk and input shaft.

Post back with what you find.

RC

Thanks RC, it is quite late here now, but I'll check everything you have mentioned and get back to you in the week.
Sorry, I mean the 3 finger bolts on the pp that release the 3 leaver springs .
Appreciate it

I was a afraid of that. Those "fingers" are preset during assembly to engage the clutch evenly. They may not all be at the same number of turns in to accomplish that. Unfortunately I do not know what that procedure is. At the very least, ( and this is going to suck), the PP should be pulled back out and reset by a competent tech who knows how they were set up. Or get another PP. Unless someone here knows how to do that. (Stepping up the PP isn't a bad idea anyway. No one sees it and the $ for the extra duty parts couldn't be spent at a better place in the drive line.)

If you don't, you may not have the clutch releasing evenly around its circumference and that is going to cause all sorts of problems.

You can check this by setting the clutch clearance at one spot- even with one of the fingers- then rotate to the other two positions and see if they are all the same. Clearance doesn't matter you're looking for all three spots to be equal. +/- 0.001. ( my guess) Better to ask a clutch shop to be sure what that tolerance can be

No rush I will check back every day or two to see where you're at.

Good Luck and know we'll get it figured out.

You may be looking at an improperly greased pilot bushing. I had almost the exact same issue with my 71. When I first got the engine to fire and run, it would not go into any gear while the engine was running, similar to your situation. I checked everything I could think of but finally wound up having to pull of the transmission. When I looked into the shaft bushing, it was dry as a bone. (I didn't do the assembly the first time) I greased the bushing per specs, re-assembled, and it worked perfectly.

I hope this helps,
Jim

what about the pedal pivots? Worn bushings can cause this.

Can you adjust the pedal somewhere at the firewall to get a bit more throw?

I've got an automatic '71, but all my other cars are manuals.

sjd

Guys, thank you for all the input, I really appreicate the help.
I have a feeling the problem is with the pp. There is no way those 3 finger bolts were set even, the machine shop did not knwo about that. ( neither did I )
However, I'll chek if the clutch can turn freely and aslo go through all the other bits of advsie and check it step by step.
I do not have a lot of time in the week, but as soon as I found the problem, I'll let you all know
Thanks again
Roel

JimT1971RR wrote:You may be looking at an improperly greased pilot bushing. I had almost the exact same issue with my 71. When I first got the engine to fire and run, it would not go into any gear while the engine was running, similar to your situation. I checked everything I could think of but finally wound up having to pull of the transmission. When I looked into the shaft bushing, it was dry as a bone. (I didn't do the assembly the first time) I greased the bushing per specs, re-assembled, and it worked perfectly.

I hope this helps,
Jim

I looked in the service manual, and it says to grease behind the bushing with multi mile grease.

Just a quick update : I am going to removed the 4 speed and fit new pp . I had a friend in on Wednesday eve, he is a brake guy , restores/ rebuild old english vintage car brakes etc. We have done the brake system, all works well. Afterwards I explained my clutch problems, he had a look with me and we are definitely removing the box. Clutch plate is not moving freely and the finger nuts are not set correctly anymore. I'll rather redo it the correct way.
This is a new learning curve for me, I never had this problem on previous 4 speed cars, but then also never had anybody skim the pp before!!
Thanks for all the help and advice, I'll keep you informed ...

Well that stinks, but shit happens in the learning curve. It's ok you'll get. I've had my trans out 6 times in the last year fighting design issues from the " BOLT IN- RUNS PERFECT- KIT" bullshit from Keisler.

Remember as jim mentioned.... grease in the pilot bushing, ( this bushing should be soaked for 24 hours in motor oil before installation. If you didn't, then oil it up in crank as best you can, maybe tape off half the hole and fill it up and the next day turn the crank 180 degrees and do it again.)

You'll have it running and chasing Mini's in the ditch before you know it.

Thanks Road Chicken, as you say, it is a learning curve. Should have the 4speed dropped by the weekend.
Shifter, linkages, propshaft all removed yesterday morning. Just waiting for a gearbox support from a friend before I loosen thr heavy bit.
Never mind the Mini's, there are a few of these in my village, gonna give them a scare when ready!!

Oh Good Lord, I saw some "unique" things on that side of the pond, never that. You'd be doing Natural Selection a favor sending one of those through the hedge row.

Well, you guys were correct!! the pilot bushing is as dry as can be.
I have the box out, did it on my own with the car on stands yesterday pm .
I am going to get new clutch and pp, just to be safe.
The TOB looks and feels correct, has a slight rock when on the shaft.
I shall oil up the pilot bushing as advised, tape half up, then rotate the flywheel.
Thanks again

Could be worse, at least the bushing isn't all galled up and is still in good shape! Just a side note on that bushing. If and when you do a clutch replacement ALWAYS check that bushing and (I suggest) replace it as part of the clutch kit. I had one "disappear" in my `cuda. One of the guys who taught me said that wasn't too surprising and they will wear out to the point of not being there.

Let us know when shes done.

Yes, the bushing is new, was replaced when the engine was built.
Going to order new clutch and pp today, will keep you up to date..